VOA Interview / Belarusian Opposition Leader Svetlana Tsihanovskay - USAGM
Metadata
- VOA Interview / Belarusian Opposition Leader Svetlana Tsihanovskay - USAGM
- August 10, 2022
- VOA’s Eastern Europe bureau chief Myroslava Gongadze has interviewed Belarusian opposition leader Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya two years after a disputed Aug. 9, 2020, presidential election in which President Alexander Lukashenko claimed victory. That widely discredited claim led to violent protests which were brutally suppressed. Tsikhanouskaya spoke to Gongadze in Vilnius, Lithuania, where she has lived in exile since the election, and where the Belarusian opposition is meeting this week to discuss their achievements, failures, and plans for the future. This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.
- Content Type Package
- Language English
- Transcript/Script English VOA’s Eastern Europe bureau chief Myroslava Gongadze has interviewed Belarusian opposition leader Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya two years after a disputed Aug. 9, 2020, presidential election in which President Alexander Lukashenko claimed victory. That widely discredited claim led to violent protests which were brutally suppressed. Tsikhanouskaya spoke to Gongadze in Vilnius, Lithuania, where she has lived in exile since the election, and where the Belarusian opposition is meeting this week to discuss their achievements, failures, and plans for the future. This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity. ** PLEASE NOTE: Time codes are in recording time, NOT real time. ** -- 00;04 Q: “So, you organized this conference to have a discussion about the future of Belarus. How do you assess the situation in Belarus today and how do you assess the levels of cooperation in opposition movement today?” BELARUSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER SVIETLANA TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “First of all, this conference is not only about the future of Belarus, but of course this question of how reforms should be organized, you know, or how our economic situation will look like in the future are very important. But what's important now – what else, or how differently we can act now to dismantle the regime. Because during these two years, we started, started forwards . We were not prepared to… any revolutions at all. It was like, in 2020, it was like hot revolution. People who have never been involved into politics, you know, they went out to the streets because they wanted these changes. We didn't have any structures, we didn't have any organizations at the time. But now it's high time to look back – what was made wrongly in two past years. Why haven't we achieved our purposes? And maybe our democratic movement needs reorganization.” Q: “You mentioned about reorganization in the government. What do you mean by that?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “We need people who will take responsibility for separate directions of our movement.” Q: “How are you planning to do that and how do you want this government to be recognized in the world?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “... way ahead we recognize this, we know this, but you have to understand that this cabinet has to be helpful to Belarusian people.” Q: “You know, there are a lot of Belarusians outside of Belarus. And the majority of them are smart, active, and those who are actually going to protest the government. How are you planning to engage them?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “Our I.T. specialists are working on digital bureaus. It will be the platform where people can be involved into decision making, into communication with each other through this platform. Because I have to say that in Belarus, there was a huge wave of repression. People are afraid to subscribe on channels that are recognized as ‘extremists in Belarus'. But we need this platform for communication, because we don't want to be in an informational bubble, and not knowing what's going on in Belarus. We are continuing to communicate through different means, but we need more involvement of Belarusans who are on the ground, not those who are in exile. We need to know how people think in Belarus first of all. So, and that's why I hope that it will be successful project.” 02;57 Q: “One of your goals for this conference, as you, as you posted, is ousting President Lukashenko. What kind of means do you have to do that?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “Now, Lukashenko is not the president of our country. He lost elections in 2020. Our strategy now is to exhaust regime as much as possible through economic pressure, through political pressure, through collecting evidences of crimes that were committed by this regime, and they were presented in 2020, and now the war in Ukraine has started. So we are, through these mechanisms, we are trying to split elites, to give understanding to nomenklatura people, to law enforcement, to soldiers that Lukashenko’s regime, Lukashenko, isn’t possible to give something new to Belarus. With Lukashenko, people will leave worse, people, economic situation will be worsening. And this is only because of Lukashenko, that he became cooperant in this war, that he brutally suppressed Belarusian people, that the quantity of political prisoners is increasing. So, of course, the international coalition, international support is extremely important in this case because we understand that when you leave in Gulag, it's almost impossible to uprise, because the level of repression huge. But together with the people in Belarus, with the people Belarusian in exile, with our Belarusian diaspora, with our international colleagues, you know, we will be able to press him enough, you know, and to understand that there is no way out of the situation, only to respond to people's demands, to release all political prisoners, to stop repressions and launch a new free and fair elections in Belarus.” 04;55 Q: “The war Ukraine presented new challenges for you, for Belarus, and for Ukraine dealing with Belarus. How would you assess the Ukraine position in regarding (sic) of Belarus and the posit—and with the Belarusian government? Because there's a lot of discussions about why Ukraine still did not break the diplomatic, diplomatic relationship with Belarus.” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “Well, it's a big question because even before the war had started, we like try, we're trying to understand why president of Ukraine or his government, you know, were not communicating to democratic forces. Because they still were sure if not to irritate Lukashenko (sic), you know, to make him angry, maybe he will not, like, allow Russian troops to use Belarusian territory for invasion. But after the war had started and everything became so evident, how can you still communicate to a dictator or have Ukrainian ambassador in Belarus when hundreds of missiles have been launched with agreement of this regime? I don't understand it.” Q: “You mentioned Belarusians who are fighting in Ukraine. A lot of Belarusians found exile in Ukraine and protection in Ukraine before the war. Now a lot of them are pushed out from Ukraine, and a lot of, I mean, their bank accounts are frozen, and they basically are kind of slowly pushed out of Ukraine. What is your expectations (sic) from Ukrainian government to kind of protect those people?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “Purely through negotiations we - since the, when the war has started, a lot of governments, not only Ukrainian one, made fast decisions that Belarus is a country aggressor, so Belarusian people have to be punished because they are Belarusians. And it took us a lot of time to explain that Belarusian regime and Belarusian people are two different things.” 07;17 Q: “Now, one of the, another goal that you have in your plan for this conference and for all of new Belarus is to push out Russian troops from Belarus and make Belarus really independent. How do you see this happening, and how do you see Belarus, new Belarus in international arena?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “So, actually we realized that while Lukashenko is in actual power in Belarus, our serenity, our independency is at stake because for keeping his own power, he's like selling our country piece by piece. He against Belarusian people (sic), he's, he gives our country as lunchmeat for Russian troops. At the moment, as for Russian troops, they're about, I don't know, 1,500, 2,000 Russian soldiers in our territory. But we realize that all those tanks, all those equipment and the thousands of Russian soldiers can come to our country at any moment because Lukashenko has to show loyalty, has to fulfill all the demands of Kremlin. Because, you know, he and his support, political support and economic support of Russia. So, if it happens, I'm sure that partisan movement that was launched in February 2022 will appear again, and by, by available means, you know, Belarusian people will fight against Russian troops on our territory. Actually, we consider our country to be occupied, politically occupied by Russian Federation at the moment, and our Belarusian people are ready to fight for their independence. Maybe with not like visible uprisings, you know, because we understand that we have to keep our most active people strong, you know, healthy for like final fight (sic). Also now we have to cultivate our national identity. We very often forget about this, that for 28 years while Lukashenko was gone, he deliberately wanted to ruin our Belarusian identity when good Belarusian schools were closed. Now, there are some books are called extremist, not all of them, but it's forbidden to read some, some authors. A Nobel winner Svetlana Alexievich, her books are called extremist as well.” Q: “And she was pushed out?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “Yeah, she's now in Germany. So we have to keep together. We have to start speaking the same language with each other because if not we, who else will defend our personal identity? And of course it's very important for us in this case also to ask our international partners to say they, you know, to show their decisive strategy to Belarus, that in the case that the Russian Federation will try to have a referendum like in Belarus, they will stand with us, they will not leave us, leave us alone. So, right now they have to say we will not allow Belarus to be occupied, like actually occupied by Russia. So we need guarantors. We need supporters. We need defenders.” 11;00 Q: “To the last question about the final battle, you mentioned the final battle, how do you see the final battle and when do you think it can happen?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “We understand that a lot actually depends on the outcome of the war in Ukraine. That’s why we feel this moral obligation to support Ukrainians as much as we can in our circumstances. Now, people in Ukraine and there are some people in Ukraine also, they are fighting not only for themselves or for their territories. They are fighting for all democratic world. And when they win, it will mean that Kremlin is weakening and hence Lukashenko is weakening. And it will be a window of opportunity for the Russian people. And our task is to keep unity, to keep Belarusian society healthy, functional, you know, to catch this moment and you know, to put all our energy into this final battle because people in Belarus, they're ready for uprising. Our people, our workers, our enterprises, they're ready for a national strike. But they say to us that we have to understand that it will not be like one more step to democratization. It should be like our last, as I say, final fight. So but till that moment we need to create multiple points of pressure on the regime to support our need to support our civil society organizations, initiatives, you know, for them to in one very important moment (sic). They will again be a unique, united movement and the people in Belarus will be ready to go for demonstrations. Our victory plan that was launched by ex-law enforcement officers, maybe our army, who knows, also will be involved, like your army or they will be split off at least in the [unknown]. You know, we understand that there can be many many ways how it can happen, and that's why we have to be ready and build structures that will take responsibility for the transition period for next steps in this particular moment.” Q: “Thank you so much.”
- Transcript/Script VOA’s Eastern Europe bureau chief Myroslava Gongadze has interviewed Belarusian opposition leader Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya two years after a disputed Aug. 9, 2020, presidential election in which President Alexander Lukashenko claimed victory. That widely discredited claim led to violent protests which were brutally suppressed. Tsikhanouskaya spoke to Gongadze in Vilnius, Lithuania, where she has lived in exile since the election, and where the Belarusian opposition is meeting this week to discuss their achievements, failures, and plans for the future. This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity. ** PLEASE NOTE: Time codes are in recording time, NOT real time. ** -- 00;04 Q: “So, you organized this conference to have a discussion about the future of Belarus. How do you assess the situation in Belarus today and how do you assess the levels of cooperation in opposition movement today?” BELARUSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER SVIETLANA TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “First of all, this conference is not only about the future of Belarus, but of course this question of how reforms should be organized, you know, or how our economic situation will look like in the future are very important. But what's important now – what else, or how differently we can act now to dismantle the regime. Because during these two years, we started, started forwards . We were not prepared to… any revolutions at all. It was like, in 2020, it was like hot revolution. People who have never been involved into politics, you know, they went out to the streets because they wanted these changes. We didn't have any structures, we didn't have any organizations at the time. But now it's high time to look back – what was made wrongly in two past years. Why haven't we achieved our purposes? And maybe our democratic movement needs reorganization.” Q: “You mentioned about reorganization in the government. What do you mean by that?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “We need people who will take responsibility for separate directions of our movement.” Q: “How are you planning to do that and how do you want this government to be recognized in the world?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “... way ahead we recognize this, we know this, but you have to understand that this cabinet has to be helpful to Belarusian people.” Q: “You know, there are a lot of Belarusians outside of Belarus. And the majority of them are smart, active, and those who are actually going to protest the government. How are you planning to engage them?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “Our I.T. specialists are working on digital bureaus. It will be the platform where people can be involved into decision making, into communication with each other through this platform. Because I have to say that in Belarus, there was a huge wave of repression. People are afraid to subscribe on channels that are recognized as ‘extremists in Belarus'. But we need this platform for communication, because we don't want to be in an informational bubble, and not knowing what's going on in Belarus. We are continuing to communicate through different means, but we need more involvement of Belarusans who are on the ground, not those who are in exile. We need to know how people think in Belarus first of all. So, and that's why I hope that it will be successful project.” 02;57 Q: “One of your goals for this conference, as you, as you posted, is ousting President Lukashenko. What kind of means do you have to do that?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “Now, Lukashenko is not the president of our country. He lost elections in 2020. Our strategy now is to exhaust regime as much as possible through economic pressure, through political pressure, through collecting evidences of crimes that were committed by this regime, and they were presented in 2020, and now the war in Ukraine has started. So we are, through these mechanisms, we are trying to split elites, to give understanding to nomenklatura people, to law enforcement, to soldiers that Lukashenko’s regime, Lukashenko, isn’t possible to give something new to Belarus. With Lukashenko, people will leave worse, people, economic situation will be worsening. And this is only because of Lukashenko, that he became cooperant in this war, that he brutally suppressed Belarusian people, that the quantity of political prisoners is increasing. So, of course, the international coalition, international support is extremely important in this case because we understand that when you leave in Gulag, it's almost impossible to uprise, because the level of repression huge. But together with the people in Belarus, with the people Belarusian in exile, with our Belarusian diaspora, with our international colleagues, you know, we will be able to press him enough, you know, and to understand that there is no way out of the situation, only to respond to people's demands, to release all political prisoners, to stop repressions and launch a new free and fair elections in Belarus.” 04;55 Q: “The war Ukraine presented new challenges for you, for Belarus, and for Ukraine dealing with Belarus. How would you assess the Ukraine position in regarding (sic) of Belarus and the posit—and with the Belarusian government? Because there's a lot of discussions about why Ukraine still did not break the diplomatic, diplomatic relationship with Belarus.” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “Well, it's a big question because even before the war had started, we like try, we're trying to understand why president of Ukraine or his government, you know, were not communicating to democratic forces. Because they still were sure if not to irritate Lukashenko (sic), you know, to make him angry, maybe he will not, like, allow Russian troops to use Belarusian territory for invasion. But after the war had started and everything became so evident, how can you still communicate to a dictator or have Ukrainian ambassador in Belarus when hundreds of missiles have been launched with agreement of this regime? I don't understand it.” Q: “You mentioned Belarusians who are fighting in Ukraine. A lot of Belarusians found exile in Ukraine and protection in Ukraine before the war. Now a lot of them are pushed out from Ukraine, and a lot of, I mean, their bank accounts are frozen, and they basically are kind of slowly pushed out of Ukraine. What is your expectations (sic) from Ukrainian government to kind of protect those people?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “Purely through negotiations we - since the, when the war has started, a lot of governments, not only Ukrainian one, made fast decisions that Belarus is a country aggressor, so Belarusian people have to be punished because they are Belarusians. And it took us a lot of time to explain that Belarusian regime and Belarusian people are two different things.” 07;17 Q: “Now, one of the, another goal that you have in your plan for this conference and for all of new Belarus is to push out Russian troops from Belarus and make Belarus really independent. How do you see this happening, and how do you see Belarus, new Belarus in international arena?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “So, actually we realized that while Lukashenko is in actual power in Belarus, our serenity, our independency is at stake because for keeping his own power, he's like selling our country piece by piece. He against Belarusian people (sic), he's, he gives our country as lunchmeat for Russian troops. At the moment, as for Russian troops, they're about, I don't know, 1,500, 2,000 Russian soldiers in our territory. But we realize that all those tanks, all those equipment and the thousands of Russian soldiers can come to our country at any moment because Lukashenko has to show loyalty, has to fulfill all the demands of Kremlin. Because, you know, he and his support, political support and economic support of Russia. So, if it happens, I'm sure that partisan movement that was launched in February 2022 will appear again, and by, by available means, you know, Belarusian people will fight against Russian troops on our territory. Actually, we consider our country to be occupied, politically occupied by Russian Federation at the moment, and our Belarusian people are ready to fight for their independence. Maybe with not like visible uprisings, you know, because we understand that we have to keep our most active people strong, you know, healthy for like final fight (sic). Also now we have to cultivate our national identity. We very often forget about this, that for 28 years while Lukashenko was gone, he deliberately wanted to ruin our Belarusian identity when good Belarusian schools were closed. Now, there are some books are called extremist, not all of them, but it's forbidden to read some, some authors. A Nobel winner Svetlana Alexievich, her books are called extremist as well.” Q: “And she was pushed out?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “Yeah, she's now in Germany. So we have to keep together. We have to start speaking the same language with each other because if not we, who else will defend our personal identity? And of course it's very important for us in this case also to ask our international partners to say they, you know, to show their decisive strategy to Belarus, that in the case that the Russian Federation will try to have a referendum like in Belarus, they will stand with us, they will not leave us, leave us alone. So, right now they have to say we will not allow Belarus to be occupied, like actually occupied by Russia. So we need guarantors. We need supporters. We need defenders.” 11;00 Q: “To the last question about the final battle, you mentioned the final battle, how do you see the final battle and when do you think it can happen?” TSIKHANOUSKAYA: “We understand that a lot actually depends on the outcome of the war in Ukraine. That’s why we feel this moral obligation to support Ukrainians as much as we can in our circumstances. Now, people in Ukraine and there are some people in Ukraine also, they are fighting not only for themselves or for their territories. They are fighting for all democratic world. And when they win, it will mean that Kremlin is weakening and hence Lukashenko is weakening. And it will be a window of opportunity for the Russian people. And our task is to keep unity, to keep Belarusian society healthy, functional, you know, to catch this moment and you know, to put all our energy into this final battle because people in Belarus, they're ready for uprising. Our people, our workers, our enterprises, they're ready for a national strike. But they say to us that we have to understand that it will not be like one more step to democratization. It should be like our last, as I say, final fight. So but till that moment we need to create multiple points of pressure on the regime to support our need to support our civil society organizations, initiatives, you know, for them to in one very important moment (sic). They will again be a unique, united movement and the people in Belarus will be ready to go for demonstrations. Our victory plan that was launched by ex-law enforcement officers, maybe our army, who knows, also will be involved, like your army or they will be split off at least in the [unknown]. You know, we understand that there can be many many ways how it can happen, and that's why we have to be ready and build structures that will take responsibility for the transition period for next steps in this particular moment.” Q: “Thank you so much.”
- NewsML Media Topics Conflict, War and Peace, Politics
- Topic Tags Svetlana Tsihanovskay Belarusian Opposition Leader
- Network VOA
- Embargo Date August 10, 2022 17:47 EDT
- Description English VOA’s Eastern Europe bureau chief Myroslava Gongadze has interviewed Belarusian opposition leader Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya two years after a disputed Aug. 9, 2020, presidential election in which President Alexander Lukashenko claimed victory. That widely discredited claim led to violent protests which were brutally suppressed. Tsikhanouskaya spoke to Gongadze in Vilnius, Lithuania, where she has lived in exile since the election, and where the Belarusian opposition is meeting this week to discuss their achievements, failures, and plans for the future. This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.
- Brand / Language Service Voice of America - English